Re: Modern Marvels

Wilson wrote:
> 
> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
> news:fugl7g$mrk$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>> news:fuger0$o05$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:fug08h$982$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>>>>>> news:fufp8b$a0q$2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Victor Kan" <victor.kan@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>>
news:5523c98f-b1b9-4a71-877e-9a893f3e32ed@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman 
>>>>>>>>>> <sunsetss0...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree 
>>>>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of 
>>>>>>>>>>> what a doctor
>>>>>>>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers 
>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those with
a
>>>>>>>>>> Masters degree.  Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil 
>>>>>>>>> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters 
>>>>>>>>> degrees and other advanced degrees probably don't have the 
>>>>>>>>> reputation of being the "can do" types entering in the field.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate 
>>>>>>>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same 
>>>>>>>> pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the 
>>>>>>>> libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the 
>>>>>>>> real world the system is always gamed to someones advantage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not getting it.  If the shortage of civil engineers with 
>>>>>>> graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting 
>>>>>>> in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their 
>>>>>>> numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters.  It 
>>>>>>> appears the present work load is getting done with existing 
>>>>>>> personnel. What am I missing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 
>>>>>> hours per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per 
>>>>>> week. When the cost of benefits are included, there is a great 
>>>>>> incentive to NOT hire more engineers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, 
>>>>>> so at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the 
>>>>>> employer to hire more workers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a 
>>>>>> different provision.
>>>>>
>>>>> I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of 
>>>>> engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy 
>>>>> into your hypothesis.
>>>>
>>>> No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel 
>>>> departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave 
>>>> the profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to 
>>>> lower compensation and/or work expectations.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It always seems I'm missing something here.  If there is a truly a 
>>> shortage and employers who need to hire additional engineers have to 
>>> compete for them from a smaller pool of  those available, then how 
>>> come that doesn't tend to drive wages up?    Claiming existing 
>>> engineers have to work harder and longer won't answer this question 
>>> because it only tends to increase the shortage as you point out above.
>>
>> What you are missing is that the economic theory of supply and demand 
>> does not apply because of external factors "gaming" the system.
>>
>> -- 
> 
> Sorry, but external factors "gaming" the system (what system?)  and 
> overriding the economic law of supply and demand is not understood.

When real life disagrees with theory, do you change theory or believe 
real life observations?

-- 
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful