Re: Modern Marvels

"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
news:fugo6g$1b4$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Wilson wrote:
>>
>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>> news:fugl7g$mrk$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>>> news:fuger0$o05$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:fug08h$982$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message

>>>>>>>> news:fufp8b$a0q$2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Victor Kan" <victor.kan@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>>>
news:5523c98f-b1b9-4a71-877e-9a893f3e32ed@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman 
>>>>>>>>>>> <sunsetss0...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate degree

>>>>>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of
what 
>>>>>>>>>>>> a doctor
>>>>>>>>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil Engineers 
>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those
with 
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> Masters degree.  Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil 
>>>>>>>>>> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters
degrees 
>>>>>>>>>> and other advanced degrees probably don't have the reputation
of 
>>>>>>>>>> being the "can do" types entering in the field.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate 
>>>>>>>>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the same

>>>>>>>>> pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined by the 
>>>>>>>>> libertarian free market advocates only exists in theory; in the 
>>>>>>>>> real world the system is always gamed to someones advantage.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not getting it.  If the shortage of civil engineers with 
>>>>>>>> graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only resulting

>>>>>>>> in a greater work load for them, then I have to wonder if their 
>>>>>>>> numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in some quarters.  It 
>>>>>>>> appears the present work load is getting done with existing 
>>>>>>>> personnel. What am I missing?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70
hours 
>>>>>>> per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per week.
When 
>>>>>>> the cost of benefits are included, there is a great incentive to
NOT 
>>>>>>> hire more engineers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA,
so 
>>>>>>> at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the employer

>>>>>>> to hire more workers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has a

>>>>>>> different provision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of 
>>>>>> engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy 
>>>>>> into your hypothesis.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel 
>>>>> departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People leave

>>>>> the profession or decide not to go into it in the first place due to

>>>>> lower compensation and/or work expectations.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It always seems I'm missing something here.  If there is a truly a 
>>>> shortage and employers who need to hire additional engineers have to 
>>>> compete for them from a smaller pool of  those available, then how
come 
>>>> that doesn't tend to drive wages up?    Claiming existing engineers 
>>>> have to work harder and longer won't answer this question because it 
>>>> only tends to increase the shortage as you point out above.
>>>
>>> What you are missing is that the economic theory of supply and demand 
>>> does not apply because of external factors "gaming" the system.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>
>> Sorry, but external factors "gaming" the system (what system?)  and 
>> overriding the economic law of supply and demand is not understood.
>
> When real life disagrees with theory, do you change theory or believe
real 
> life observations?
>
> -- 

Who are you going to believe?  Me or your lying eyes?