Re: Modern Marvels

Wilson wrote:
> 
> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
> news:fugo6g$1b4$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>> news:fugl7g$mrk$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:fuger0$o05$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>>>>>> news:fug08h$982$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in 
>>>>>>>>> message news:fufp8b$a0q$2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>>>> Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Victor Kan" <victor.kan@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>>>>
news:5523c98f-b1b9-4a71-877e-9a893f3e32ed@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 17, 8:16 pm, Tom Sherman 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <sunsetss0...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The starting wage for a civil engineer with a graduate 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> degree is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> larger US city is about $40/year, or less than a third of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what a doctor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or lawyer would make.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kinda bizarre though--according to this page, Civil 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Engineers with a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bachelors have a higher average starting salary than those 
>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
>>>>>>>>>>>> Masters degree.  Wow, Petroleum engineers too!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say civil 
>>>>>>>>>>> engineers who have hung around in college to get masters 
>>>>>>>>>>> degrees and other advanced degrees probably don't have the 
>>>>>>>>>>> reputation of being the "can do" types entering in the field.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Actually, there is a shortage of civil engineers with graduate 
>>>>>>>>>> degrees. However, the shortage results in more work for the 
>>>>>>>>>> same pay, not higher wages. The level playing field imagined 
>>>>>>>>>> by the libertarian free market advocates only exists in 
>>>>>>>>>> theory; in the real world the system is always gamed to 
>>>>>>>>>> someones advantage.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not getting it.  If the shortage of civil engineers with 
>>>>>>>>> graduate degrees isn't driving up their wages, but only 
>>>>>>>>> resulting in a greater work load for them, then I have to 
>>>>>>>>> wonder if their numerical shortage isn't somewhat imagined in 
>>>>>>>>> some quarters.  It appears the present work load is getting 
>>>>>>>>> done with existing personnel. What am I missing?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Engineering is an exempt profession, so an engineer working 70 
>>>>>>>> hours per week can be paid the same as one working 40 hours per 
>>>>>>>> week. When the cost of benefits are included, there is a great 
>>>>>>>> incentive to NOT hire more engineers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Non-exempt employees get paid "time and a half" [1] by the FLSA, 
>>>>>>>> so at some point it becomes financially advantageous for the 
>>>>>>>> employer to hire more workers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] Unless covered by a collective bargaining agreement that has 
>>>>>>>> a different provision.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I take your words to mean that you believe there is a shortage of 
>>>>>>> engineers in your firm, but your employer doesn't necessarily buy 
>>>>>>> into your hypothesis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, the shortage is constantly being commented on by personnel 
>>>>>> departments of larger firms and by trade organizations. People 
>>>>>> leave the profession or decide not to go into it in the first 
>>>>>> place due to lower compensation and/or work expectations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It always seems I'm missing something here.  If there is a truly a 
>>>>> shortage and employers who need to hire additional engineers have 
>>>>> to compete for them from a smaller pool of  those available, then 
>>>>> how come that doesn't tend to drive wages up?    Claiming existing 
>>>>> engineers have to work harder and longer won't answer this question 
>>>>> because it only tends to increase the shortage as you point out
above.
>>>>
>>>> What you are missing is that the economic theory of supply and 
>>>> demand does not apply because of external factors "gaming" the
system.
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>
>>> Sorry, but external factors "gaming" the system (what system?)  and 
>>> overriding the economic law of supply and demand is not understood.
>>
>> When real life disagrees with theory, do you change theory or believe 
>> real life observations?
>>
>> -- 
> 
> Who are you going to believe?  Me or your lying eyes?
> 
That question holds a false premise, and therefore will not be answered.

-- 
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful